‘We respect no colonial borders’

Following is an interview with Chairman Fred Hampton Jr. of the Prisoners of Conscience Committee conducted in Chicago on March 19 by Workers World newspaper reporter Eric Struch. Hampton is a former political prisoner.

Fred Hampton speaks at Mumia Abu-Jamal rally in February 2005. Photo: indybay.org

Workers World: What is the history of the Prisoners of Conscience Committee (POCC) and what sort of activities has it been involved in?

Fred Hampton Jr.: The POCC was literally birthed from behind enemy lines. In other words, it came up in the concentration camps. It was formulated inside what many people refer to as the prisons. Big Muddy River in particular, we refer to it as Big Bloody River. To put everything in its correct context, prior to me being locked up, I was snatched up by the U.S. government; I was local president of the NPDUM, the National People’s Democratic Uhuru Movement, while being held captive. We are formally the POCC, that is the committee of which I am the international chair now. The name of it is the Prisoners of Conscience Committee. This is not a prison activist organization; this is a revolutionary organization which utilizes the contradictions of what many refer to as the growing prison-industrial complex, which really refers to the mass kidnapping of Africans and other colonized people. We were using that as just a catalyst, a jump-off point for points of unity with other organizations, other forces. So again, we always stress that we are not a prison activist organization, because we recognize what Minister Huey P. Newton said, that prisons are a microcosm of outside our community. It occurs at a more intense level inside the camps, these same contradictions exist on the outside in our community, whether it be the police terrorism prevalent out here in Englewood, the South Side of Chicago, Oakland, California. We don’t get health care that our people are subjected to in the Women’s Correctional Institution in New Orleans. We don’t get health care. We have a tremendous casualty count throughout every colonized community. So again, we say what Minister Huey P. Newton said, that prison is a microcosm of our communities. We use it as a catalyst point.

WW: There has been a big controversy over the past three to four weeks about renaming a stretch of west Monroe St. after the Chairman of the Illinois branch of the Black Panther Party, Fred Hampton. A lot of the current coverage in the bourgeois media should be seen in the context of an effort by the cops to minimize the assassination of your father and Mark Clark and instead put the label of “violent” on the BPP. I think that the police in Chicago are really unwilling to come clean about their own history of violence, especially in the relatively recent case of Commander Jon Burge, who is in comfortable retirement in Florida after using torture to extract confessions from his victims that led to many convictions and death sentences. So if you could give me a little bit of background to the actual events in 1969 when the cops led the assault on BPP headquarters on Monroe.

FH: In this city—as opposed to a lot of places where they say that only the names have changed—in this city the names have not even changed! Lt. Jon Burge was over at Area 2 Violent Crimes. He has a notorious history, not only in the U.S., but in Vietnam where he put the horrific torture tactics ranging from the infamous “black box” with the electric shock on the men, and I’m sure many women, on their sexual organs, stripping prisoners naked and handcuffing them to radiators and dousing their parts with water. One of his right-hand men that engaged in these tactics who was part of his, kind of like a local Navy SEALS, an elite police unit, was Joe “Machine Gun” Gorman, that was one of his partners in crime. Joe “Machine Gun” Gorman received this name, this moniker, because of the role he played in the Massacre on Monroe, the assassination of Deputy Chairman Fred Hampton and Defense Captain Mark Clark on Dec. 4, 1969. That same Joe “Machine Gun” Gorman played a role in the torturing of present-day political prisoner and our Minister of Defense, Aaron Patterson. In this city, in particular, the names do not even change, and the actual criminals, how they have been rewarded, they have been elevated. There is no better example that we can lay out than the present mayor of Chicago and the former state’s attorney, Richard Daley, who is the son of gangster Daley, Sr., who during his tenure was responsible for how the assassinations of Chairman Fred and Mark Clark had went down.

You’ve been hearing a lot of responses from this Mark Donahue and the FOP, the Fraternal Order of Police, in Washington, D.C., and other police representatives throughout the country, in fact throughout the world about this and the attempt to liquidate the BPP by saying that they were violent. One statement in particular did get a lot of airplay, was the BPP’s “off the pigs” statement. Let the record reflect that Chicago is infamous for being violent. In fact, it’s known for gangsters and guns. One of the major moneymakers in this city is the Al Capone tours. They actually have tour buses that go to different Al Capone sights. Again, the old Daley machine history of going with the Hamburgs, the street gang.

The fact is that Chairman Fred made important contributions to the BPP and their politics. It was part of an organization that went as far as, as Minister Huey P. Newton said, to politicize the gun. They politicized the gun to the point that the people were able to distinguish the people’s gun from the pig’s gun. You know what I’m saying? So, in fact, there was a bill that came in response to the Panthers politicizing people on the importance of weapons, and as Chairman Fred said, be clear that anyone that attempts to disarm you has plans on harming you. The bill was by [California State Assembly member Donald] Mulford and was an attack on the BPP. It was known as the “Panther Bill.” It was intended to stop the Panthers in particular and the people in general from being armed. And they had no problem, you know, with what many people refer to as the fratricide, or the horizontal violence in the community that a lot of people call black-on-black crime. They had no problem with you being armed. Once the ante started being upped, the lines had been drawn between the state and the people. That’s when there’s a problem with the weapons being inside the community.

If you just want to look at numbers alone, there was, about two weeks ago, one of the head pigs in Chicago, Superintendent [Philip] Cline, was saying that they would like 500 streets named in honor of fallen policemen. If you did a casualty count on the amount of people just in the last few months that the pigs have taken down, there are not enough streets in this city or in this country to name in reference to the amount of casualties incurred, or have continued to occur, or while this system is in place will continue to occur.

WW: A lot of the terminology that the POCC uses is kind of unfamiliar to people. Like using terms like “concentration camps” to refer to prisons, which I would assume takes into account the fact that the prison population, which is overwhelmingly people of color, African-Americans, Latin@s, has grown from around 200,000 or so in the beginning of the seventies up to over 2 million now. And also referring to the destabilization of African-American and other communities of color as being a counterinsurgency. Can you explain that a little?

FH: We must start to use brutal terms to describe brutal realities. There’s a continuous attempt to liquidate or devalue or use euphemisms for the brutal realities that go down within the confines of the United States and in particular within the African community. Right now, at this stage of the game, you hear people using terms like “no-fly zones” and even acknowledging political prisoners, or even in response to the brutal photographs that were released in reference to the way prisoners were mistreated in Abu Ghraib. And discussions of the Geneva conventions, and the rules under which detainees are supposed to be treated.

Our position is that it would be a step forward if prisoners in Attica, or Folsom, or not Stateville but “Deathville,” were treated—not even with Geneva convention hearing decisions—with just some sort of pet care or Humane Society rules. There are certain guidelines about how they have to treat animals when breeding dogs. And when I speak about these contradictions, it’s not from some sort of abstract non-connection. This is what I know, what I lived and almost died under, you know what I’m saying? Itnot from a reality TV show, it’s actual reality. And we have to stress these terms on a consistent basis; it’s not a game.

I think it’s a disrespect to the Black community in particular when people can acknowledge these contradictions about Abu Ghraib and dismiss the fact that [Charles] Grainer, one of the prison guards there, was a prison guard in SCI Greene where Mumia Abu-Jamal has been held captive for over the past decade. So at the minimum, let’s be consistent with our definitions. Former Illinois Sen. Paul Simon had made the point that, in reference to the amount of lives lost in Africa due to Ebola and other forms of chemical and biological warfare, if that was to happen to European people, there would be an uproar, a world uproar. However, when it happens to Black lives, they’ve got this consistent position—they dismiss it. It sets the stage for Black people to be treated like the Rodney Dangerfield of all races—no respect. Being that we are in this time now, we’re consistent when we call people to question.

A lot of people are very critical of us with this upcoming selection, or election, or whatever you want to call it, that a lot of people want us to vote for Black candidates. We say no, we have a position, whether they’re Black, white, or whatever color, whether they run for garbage collector in Detroit, Mich., or the president of the United States. Our Minister of Defense Aaron Patterson literally approached John Kerry when he was going for his presidential run and asked him what was his position on the African Anti-Terrorism Bill. We literally called [Barack] Obama, and a lot of people at the Hip Hop Summit said, “Well, man, we shouldn’t ask him this because he’s gonna be the first Black senator.” We don’t care if he’s gonna be the first Black senator. Our position is, we don’t care if he’s gonna be the first Black Martian. If he takes no position on these attacks that’s going on in our community and is able to talk about other things all over the world, it’s a disrespect. In fact, we had a campaign called “Math for the Masses.” We said: no position on political prisoners plus no position on reparations plus no position on the African Anti-Terrorism Bill equals no vote. That was our position, that is our position.

WW: A lot of the things you’ve mentioned have an international dimension to them. When you talk about the presence of guns in the African American community and the attitude the cops have, there are parallels with the whole decade of sanctions that were imposed upon Iraq in order to disarm them as a prelude to being attacked by U.S. imperialism and the whole deal over the construction of nuclear reactors in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea and Iran, who are also in danger of being attacked. The effect of these domestic counterinsurgency policies on the African-American community is minimized in the bourgeois press.

FH: We respect no colonial borders. We know that United States policies create chaos and restore order. We know that one of Daley’s major tactics is to work off the emotionalism of the people to justify the attacks. They went through this with Chairman Fred Hampton that says that if they would have the people calling on Frank James to stop what Jesse James is doing, you dig? There is no war on drugs, no war on guns, no war on gangs. There is a war on the people, you know what I’m saying? Englewood—it’s been referred to in many cases as “little Liberia.” In the last week, I’ve been in funeral homes more than I’ve been in my own home, just in response to the amount of lives that have been lost. It’s a difficult position to take, to maintain principles, to be scientific, because as Minister Huey P. Newton said, being a revolutionary is difficult because a lot of times you have to fight in the people’s interests even when they only see their own interests. Just yesterday, you dig, we had some major competition with the area gang chief of Chicago, Mayor Daley, gangster Daley. Who is responsible for these atrocities that’s going on inside these communities? I know for face value, a lot of people just use a lack of morality, that these Black youths are just up and up gunning down these young sisters, 10- or 12-year-old sisters. I know it’s hard to be scientific when you talk about the cases, sister Woods, sister White, but we have to think of this as a crime scene. That’s what they are—large crime scenes. The New Orleans situation, these are crime scenes. In fact, we don’t refer to it as Hurricane Katrina, it was Hurricane America. We have to give credit where credit is due.

A criminal psychologist said when you go to a crime scene, the first thing you ever look for is, who benefited? In every situation—I’m talking about the Englewoods, the Woodlawns, New Orleans—oppressed people are not the beneficiaries of these atrocities. It is the government. We can go back to attacks on the Native American community, on how General [George] Crook and the rest of the other colonialists put the blame on the people to make it seem as if Geronimo and the Apaches were responsible for the colonialists attacking and raping the Apaches and other Native people. In other words, they have the ability to flip the script or to switch it up to make the criminal appear to be the victim and the victim appear as the criminal.

The state has blood on their hands. Directly or indirectly. I don’t know if you are or not, but you should be familiar with the Woodlawn Experiment. The whole process that was implemented by the University of Chicago, Sears and Roebuck, First National Bank, Rockefeller Foundation, how they funneled $100 million cold cash money into various street organizations. A lot of people say, well, the government agencies gave the money in order to help the community out. If you believe that, you believe the colonialists gave the Native people blankets to actually keep them warm, you know what I’m saying?

WW: I think Jeff Fort got a lot of that money.

FH: And a lot of people try to make Jeff Fort into a criminal when the fact is that Jeff Fort was a teenager at that time. Rev. [Arthur] Brazier from the Woodlawn Organization, you know, Leon Finney from Leon’s BBQ, these were the fiscal agents for these teenagers. They’re still there. They benefited. You still see the big mega-buck churches there. Sears Roebuck is still profiting. The University of Chicago, they’re still creating these programs. We see it happening in Englewood right now; we have case after case of documented proof that they have flooded the community with agents provocateurs, informants, snitches. The bourgeoisie, the government bringing crack cocaine into the community, bringing AK-47’s into the community. They acknowledge that they have a program where they’re bringing informants, dropping them inside the community, making deals with them, and they have to create a crime epidemic. When crime goes up, property values go down, and you see where the yellow tape is going, where the smoke is going, you see a situation like you did the other day, with the last victim, sister White, saying “I just want to leave Englewood.” And again, the new housing that this government, in particular this city, has planned for Black people and other oppressed people are the penitentiaries and the graveyards.

They hit the community anchors, I’m talking about the Bethel church on 64th and Ashland which is over there, these are war moves. These are community anchors they are picking out. Paying off the people in the community, they are bringing in those that are down with their agenda. Again, this is U.S. policy. Create chaos and restore order.

WW: In Cabrini-Green, where gentrification is fully underway right now, the first thing that went on over there before they even actually started knocking down any buildings was to put in a new police station at Larabee and Division. They make sure that they have that aspect taken care of first before they start displacing people or start building condos. So my question is, is there a struggle going on over gentrification on west Monroe right now?

FH: No doubt about it. That’s carrying a big stick, a big stick and a carrot; you know what I’m saying? That’s U.S. policy, no doubt about it. You see it in Iraq, they placed the military there, they have to. The police are the front line. A lot of people believe they exist to serve and protect, regardless of what’s there on their door, the propaganda on the side of their police car doors. It’s what Minister Huey P. Newton said: they’re an occupying army in the community. This is the most prevalent, the most visible representative of the state. This is what stops us from addressing the other questions about the inadequate health care; this is what stops us on lack of housing or snatching up political prisoners. The front lines.

So they have to put the police there. The police serve to instill fear and to instill terror inside the community. The African Anti-Terrorism Bill includes language about land grab as opposed to gentrification. ‘Cause we know a lot of people like to look at certain areas, you know, well, you got to say the grass is greener up and down on State street, you have more different businesses and so on and so forth. At some point, you have to ask the logical question: where are all the people at? And again, the new housing the government has planned for our people, man, are penitentiaries and the graveyards.

They’ve implemented a number of different tactics. The terminology may sound real nice, Renaissance 2010, things that they claim they’re going to renovate. The new school program—these are steps that are going to phase out the public educational system. Just like under the previous Daley regime, Daley Sr., the Chicago 21 plan. Let me relate it back to the University of Chicago again, whose name continuously pops up in all these projects. They did tests with rats on top of each other to see how they could create chaos, how much chaos they could create in the community. So even though they may come up with these sort of euphemisms, the Chicago 21 plan, Renaissance 2010—these are different stages in the game. They’re going to phase out the community, phase out the people, get rid of education, get rid of the community anchors, so on and so forth.

We see it happen in Cabrini-Green, with the Cabrini-Green Four, who were brutalized by the Chicago police—that’s on videotape! Exposure of the tape played a key role in the investigation and forced former Police Superintendent Terry Hilliard to tender his resignation. The whole question of what role the pigs play in the community has to be tied to the case of Michael Walker. And make sure; do not edit this statement about Michael Walker, who was loved by the community of Cabrini-Green. Michael Walker, who was gunned down Oct. 18, 2001, by a Chicago pig in Cabrini-Green. He was strategically picked out. A lot of these cases are not just accidental. These are cases of actual hits. They’re picking out guys with backbones. We’ve seen it, another brother on 22nd and State, who was shot 18 to 20 times—Shawon “P-Ron” Grant, 59th and Sanga mon. They are strategically picking out potential people’s soldiers and knocking them out, instilling an element of terror in the community—step back, stand down, leave up out here!

WW: What is the current status of the struggle around the street names right now? I know there’s events coming up.

FH: We rumbling’. We’re on tour every day. I just talked to two churches today. We’re in the churches; we’re going through the hip hop scenes. I’be spoken at the concert tonight with M-1 and Ghost face and we put it out there about this here. We’re in the coffee shops. We’re in the street corners, the taverns, poetry sets, we’re putting this out there with the airwaves, we’re calling all communities. We commend the Latin@ community for the courageous stand they took over this whole border issue on March 10. We’re calling on a similar sentiment and also, it’s not just about the street signs. You see, it’s becoming clear to the people what the state already knows, it’s bigger than the street signs. Once you start making the concrete connections, you know what I’m saying.

You can’t talk about Chairman Fred without talking about Jerry “Dina” Dunnagan, who’s locked up to this day—an original member of the BPP. You can’t talk about Chairman Fred Hampton without talking about the assassination of Jake Winters in November of 1969. You can’t talk about Chairman Fred without talking about the present incarceration of Minister of Defense Aaron Patterson, who was locked down and beat up in the same courthouse that former Chairman of the BPP Bobby Seale was chained and gagged at, 38 years ago. So they know, we’re talking about one block. I mean, you would think, what is the problem with one block? They know that once you start making these connections about this whole thing. Let’s ask some questions. Where was Phil Cline even when that went down? They have a September 11th Commission down there, we need some December 4th Commission hearings. And we’re going to be moving mass numbers.

City Hall, March 29, Wednesday, 10:00 o’clock. We’re gonna wear all black, we’re going to City Hall. After that, we’re having a Chairman Fred Hampton Street Party. So it’ll be a revolutionary flip on Dave Chappelle’s “Block Party” [movie] that just came out. Matter of fact, Dave Chapelle’s talking about coming in with Erykah Badu, so I’m bringing my troops in, members of the BPP, the POCC have put out an international call, bringing some forces in. Again, this is like Chairman Fred, his legend as well as his work transcended all colonial borders. Forces to this day from Chicago, London, Africa, to show their love for what Chairman Fred of the BPP did. People from all over the world are coming for this move March 29. We’re settin’ it down. We’re saying, “What’s our call? Free them all! Where we gonna be March 29? City Hall!”

WW: And there’s also an event on April 15, I think?

FH: April 14. Our Minister of Defense, Aaron Patterson, a brother that’s true to my heart and should be true to the people’s heart, who is facing life. This is not nothing new to him. He has literally kissed the casket before, tangled with, tortured and danced with death. And always maintained his head and stayed up and is still fighting. Let me tie this in real quick. Former governor of Illinois George Ryan is on trial right now, they say for the licenses-for-bribes scandal. His wife has just acknowledged, in a news interview, that her husband is being tried because of the position he took against the death penalty. If they can acknowledge this, Aaron Patterson said to Judge Rebecca Pallmeyer, “You think it’s a coincidence that you got me and Governor Ryan’s case?” It’s the same judge! She ran off the bench when Aaron Patterson put this out! You go look at the footage when Aaron Patterson was on the Oprah Winfrey show. Every one of those people, with the exception of Oprah Winfrey, are either locked up or face being locked up. On the whole panel. I mean, Patterson came out after 17 years, after being tortured. What he got done in the year and a half he was out, was more than a lot of people had done their whole lives. I’m talking about that man, in case after case.

WW: I remember he was at every demonstration.

FH: Every demonstration! No finances, no resources, took a lien on the money the state was supposed to give him, took out $100,000 cash, went back, bonded another brother out—Nathson Fields, was on death row for 18 years. Aaron Patterson bonded him out on $100,000 cash. I recall one time a sister had told me when Aaron Patterson had come to New York City, he had got to meet the hip hop artist Jay-Z. I said, nah, you got it twisted. Jay-Z got to meet Aaron Patterson. Jay-Z gave people [connected to] September 11th a million dollars. Aaron Patterson reached out to the O.V.’s, the original victims of terrorism. This brother I’m talking about again is true to my heart, true to the people’s heart. He was out here forming coalitions; I’m talking about, playing a key role, re-implementing the real-deal rainbow coalition. The people have got to be there for him. We need credibility letters, send ASAP to our P.O. Box 368255, Chicago, Ill., 60636, to state how Aaron Patterson impacted on their lives. We need to flood letters to the governor. We need people to pack that courtroom on April 14th, Judge Rebecca Pallmeyer, courtroom 2119, the address is 219 S. Dearborn. We need warm bodies down there for Aaron Patterson. The people need to support Aaron Patterson ‘cause Aaron Patterson supported the people.

WW: Do you guys have a website?

FH: We’re still working on our website, we need to get it up there. We’re doing it through SFbayview.com. Then you type in POCC or Chairman Fred Hampton Jr. and there’s an update on different campaigns we’re working on, whether it be Hurricane America, or the Black Cross campaign, or the March 29 Chairman Fred Hampton Street Party. There’s also a MySpace.com, type in Chairman Fred Part 2.

WW: How did you end up hooking up with Dave Chapelle?

FH: You wouldn’t believe it. Ha ha ha! I give Dave Chapelle a clenched fist. As opposed to giving it four stars, I give it 10 broken prison bars. I’m saying that because that’s a tool we use in campaigns, the Mumia Abu-Jamal campaign and so many other campaigns. And it’s important that we have forces like this. Regarding the POCC code of culture, I think back about hearing stories about how Richard Pryor when he came through Chicago New Years Eve 1969, I believe it was, how he came in with Chairman Fred, gave a donation to the BPP and everything. About the movie, what the clip was based on, I will say this—a lot of people thought it was scripted out like that. The people didn’t think we were going to make it inside the movie set, but it happened. You know, we made it happen.

WW: You ended up being on the poster.

FH: We got on the poster and Dave Chapelle, he loved it, the piece. He respected the business. He’s at the point, he’s talking about coming here himself to support the Chairman Fred Hampton Street Party, so he’s family. It wasn’t scripted out like that. I’m not just saying that because I was in it—it’s a fine piece of propaganda and we need to use it like that. We need to up the ante. Ludachris just mentioned Chairman Fred Hampton in that movie “Crash” of his own volition. That was some serious troubles that we had with him at the Hip Hop Summit. We have to reward those who do the right things, and repercussions for those that don’t. Movements, streets make the music, music don’t make the streets. I know James Brown had a whole different song planned at first. There were movements in place, forces like H. Rap Brown (aka Imam Jamil Al Amin) who got ahold of James Brown and told him, literally, we ain’t havin’ that type of garbage. He turned around and came out with “Say It Loud, I’m Black and I’m Proud.” He couldn’t have pulled that stunt he pulled in that “Rocky” movie with those red, white and blue drawers talking about “Living In America,” not in the sixties. So we say reward those who do the right thing, repercussions for those who don’t.

We have to support those such as Dave Chapelle, Erykah Badu, Miss Saigon in New York, Mos Def, Common, so on and so forth. We callin’ the question. To those who have no points of unity with the struggle, our position is: There’s too many brothers in Sing Sing for us to be talking about some bling bling. They ain’t gotta be front-line freedom fighters, but they gonna have to play some points of unity in the struggle.

In fact, at one point, Twista’s manager had told me when we were on his video set, he was explaining to me that artists all over the country are talking about us, the work we’re doing, but we don’t want to make no videos up here. And I said, why is that? They’re too much on the LA, Atlanta, it’s gonna cost too much, too much requirements. Let the record reflect, man. I said, let me ask you a question: If y’all are not doing these videos out here in this community, how is that affecting the community? What benefit are you to the community? We are calling these cats to question just like we’re calling every other institution to question. If it ain’t meeting the needs of the community, if it ain’t serving no purpose to the community, it don’t even need to be in the community—that’s it. That’s the position we take with any institution, artists, venues—anything. That’s how we get down. We don’t deal with liberalism, we call the question. All those who are down with us, all our allies, we got their back, we love them. Rewards for those who do the right things, repercussions for those who don’t.

WW: I’d like to thank you very much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to do this interview, and thanks so much on behalf of Workers World Party also.

FH: Right on. Thank you.